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What is going on here?? Unbelieveable!!

Alan,

Thanks for linking that. It makes very interesting reading. Especially page four, sections 12-17.

Interesting that sawstop isn't mentioned, like, anywhere in the document, so any discussions of *their* legal strategy seem beyond the point.

Essentially, what it says is that ryobi was shown technology that could make saws safer back in 2000. They didn't incorporate it, or any other alternative technology, and in fact, as of 2005, still hadn't. And it alleges they were negligent about safeguards, warnings, and instructions, even though they warranted the product was merchantable, safe and fit.

All the other discussions may as well be popcorn. Can the plaintiff prove the complaint? No problem. You or I could do that in open court, as long as we had the document proving ryobi executives knew there was something, and decided not to use it, or anything else.

What burns my bacon is what their press agent said:

"“We are evaluating the results with our lawyers, and evaluating how to proceed,’’ said Jason Swanson, a spokesman for One World Technologies.

“Notwithstanding the outcome of this trial and any possible appeal, we remain confident that the saw which was the subject of this lawsuit was well-designed and manufactured with all due consideration for the needs and safety of the consumer.’’

Well, no, it wasn't. It was manufactured with all due consideration for their profit margin within their targeted market niche. And they made a conscious business decision to defend the suits rather than redesign. That's fine, but they should at least be honest about it.

This is deeply reminiscent of the Ford Pinto, another budget product. Ford, too, made a conscious business decision it would be cheaper to defend the lawsuits than to redesign. Not sure that turned out to be right. Don't see many pintos on the road today... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
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After that read one could easily insert any brand saw they have in place of Ryobi. After all the man did try and sell it to all of them. Delta, Powermatic, Jet, Craftsman and so down the line.
So that means a safety recall of every saw sold in America after 2000.
You think Toyota has problems.:doh::doh::rofl::rofl:
 
I had a BT-3000 for a while. Not a bad little saw. Had a nice little blade guard on it. If the blade guard was on it, I'm trying to figure out how he rammed his meat hooks in there?

I sold it because I couldn't get the sliding miter saw table to give me a straight cut... :rolleyes:
 
OK, I've read the complaint, and have more opinions.

For the record, I don't believe blade braking technology should be mandatory. If I had invented it, then maybe yes, but in that case I'd have a financial interest in the concept.

I truly hope the plaintiff in this case is laughed out of court. (I fear he won't be, though.) The guy didn't lose fingers due to a defective saw. He lost them due to defective practices or a fluke accident. The saw did exactly what it was designed and marketed to do...cut wood with a spinning blade.

I have mixed emotions about mandated safety measures like seat belts, air bags, and motorcycle helmets. I use and appreciate seat belts and airbags, and would still have them in my vehicles even if I could pay less for a vehicle without them. Still not sure they should be required by law, though. :huh:

On the other hand, seat belts and air bags can save lives; blade brakes save limbs. I'm more likely to agree with legislation that requires life-saving equipment than legislation requiring limb-saving equipment.
 
What we may see is businesses that use table saws essentially required to have saws with some blade brake technology because of insurance costs. After all, employees should have a safe work environment, and the cost to swap out existing table saws with safer table saws is not that great compared to the cost of an accident.

Mike
 
Mike I smell OSHA all over your comment:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
After all way back when, some guy dropped something on his toe and no we all have to wear steel toe boots.
 
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We could make power tools like guns; you must pass a safety course to buy one. After passing, you waive all rights to sue anyone as the result of being stupid. Accidents happen, and they are usually (95-98%) the result of human error. I have yet to see a power tool, properly maintained, that powered itself on, walked or rolled across the shop and exacted it's pound of flesh on an unsuspecting user.
I did notice in the complaint that the employee is not including his employer in the suit for failure to train in the competent use of a mechanical device...hhhhmmmmm...interesting.
 
My wife watches a lot of those home improvement shows on DIY. They show a newbie how to cut with a saw be it chop or table or circular then hand it over. Saw one once where they let the lady of the home split a sheet of plywood on a little table saw, it shot half of it back against a wall or something. Everyone laughed, I cringed. Accidents waiting to happen. I would bet this was the first stage and when it gets appealed I would almost bet it gets overturned (one could always wish can't they??!!!).
 
Jonathan Shively said:
My wife watches a lot of those home improvement shows on DIY. They show a newbie how to cut with a saw be it chop or table or circular then hand it over. Saw one once where they let the lady of the home split a sheet of plywood on a little table saw, it shot half of it back against a wall or something. Everyone laughed, I cringed. Accidents waiting to happen. I would bet this was the first stage and when it gets appealed I would almost bet it gets overturned (one could always wish can't they??!!!).
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Jonathan how long before the school makes you get the SS?
Here as they replace they are getting the SS. But as far as I know no one is being made to replace with them yet.
 
Chuck Thoits said:
Jonathan how long before the school makes you get the SS?
Here as they replace they are getting the SS. But as far as I know no one is being made to replace with them yet.
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I currently do all of the cutting on our table saw at school. I have talked with a couple of our board members and they weren't even aware of the technology available/SS. I personally would purchase a SS for the school as the society we live in and the chain of command, they have to sue me then the school. All politics aside, if I can teach a student with a safer product, why wouldn't I? Right now it is a moot point.
 
Mike Henderson said:
According to SS, excessively wet wood, wet pressure treated wood, or anything metallic will cause the brake to trip. For the wood, you can put the saw into bypass mode and make a test cut, and the saw will tell you if it would have tripped.

Mike
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And while making a test cut in bypass mode you cut your finger off??????
It would seem to me that for Sawstop market it as a safe system, it should be safe 100% all of the time. Seems the other manufacturers should be looking at it from that point of view at the trials.


I would think this would be more a issue for Sawstop eventually. If you do alot of wet wood cutting and you are constantly turning the system on/off and "you forget to take responsibility and remember that it is in bypass mode and you really think it is in active mode" and you cut your finger off, then what. Can you now sue Sawstop for giving you the impression that by buying thier product you will be safe.

With the Sawstop in bypass mode it is not any safer than the PM2000 it have now.

Rob
 
Rob Damon said:
And while making a test cut in bypass mode you cut your finger off??????
It would seem to me that for Sawstop market it as a safe system, it should be safe 100% all of the time. Seems the other manufacturers should be looking at it from that point of view at the trials.


I would think this would be more a issue for Sawstop eventually. If you do alot of wet wood cutting and you are constantly turning the system on/off and "you forget to take responsibility and remember that it is in bypass mode and you really think it is in active mode" and you cut your finger off, then what. Can you now sue Sawstop for giving you the impression that by buying thier product you will be safe.

With the Sawstop in bypass mode it is not any safer than the PM2000 it have now.

Rob
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I don't think that would be much of an issue. If you deliberately put the saw in bypass you have by default chosen to negate the safety feature.

Taking the emotion out of the discussion. Why do so many people "hate" the SawStop technology? It is a proven safety system, a demonstration of modern engineering and technology. People buy it because it is another facet of making a workspace a safer place. People don't buy it to slam the blade just for fun. The company and its owners are in business to make money using the system they developed. I believe this is what drives the typical American ethos: think smart, work hard and get ahead.

BACK ON TOPIC. I don't know exactly why the plaintiff was awarded judgement in his favor. I can speculate that it was a combination of the location (Massachusetts), sympathetic jury (only a majority needs to find for the plaintiff), excellent lawyering (plaintiff) and poor lawyering (Ryobi).

I hope and believe that this will be overturned on appeal. It just doesn't make sense to me why it wouldn't. The saw was manufactured to expected design standards and features. The guy whose hand was mangled is trying to get something for what happened to him that will affect him for the rest of his life and livelihood. I understand that. So the guy is going after the deepest pockets. I would again speculate that his employer was having to deal with keeping costs as low as possible in order to compete with other lowball contractors and probably didn't have appropriate insurance.
 
Rob Damon said:
And while making a test cut in bypass mode you cut your finger off??????
It would seem to me that for Sawstop market it as a safe system, it should be safe 100% all of the time. Seems the other manufacturers should be looking at it from that point of view at the trials.


I would think this would be more a issue for Sawstop eventually. If you do alot of wet wood cutting and you are constantly turning the system on/off and "you forget to take responsibility and remember that it is in bypass mode and you really think it is in active mode" and you cut your finger off, then what. Can you now sue Sawstop for giving you the impression that by buying thier product you will be safe.

With the Sawstop in bypass mode it is not any safer than the PM2000 it have now.

Rob
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You can only put the SS in bypass mode for one cut at a time (and it's a pain to do). As soon as you turn the saw off, it reverts back to safe mode. There's a key that is used to put the saw in bypass mode so you can remove the key if you don't want people to put it in bypass mode (like at school).

But it's certainly true that with the SS in bypass mode, it's no safer than the PM2000 you have now.

Mike

[Dan - thinking about why he didn't sue his boss: Workman's Comp limits the recovery and prevents him from suing his boss, I think, so he had to go after someone else.]
 
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well, as one dog said to the other, just between you, me, and the tree, even if i had the available cash, i still would not buy a sawstop. the price of it being one, the incidences of false positives setting it off, and nature being what it is, the posibilty of the system failing at an inopportune time. having had an accident with my faithful porter cable (11 stitches in my thumb), i know better than to be less than 100% focused on what i'm doing when using it. then again, i have insurance to cover any dings i self inflict, but not sufficiently deep pockets to cover the upwards of $200 for a possible false positive (replacement of cartridge and blade), every time it would happen. truth be told, i'd rather have that spinning monster in front of me as a warning, than risk the complacency of depending on a difference in conductivity to keeping my fingers safe. just my humble opinion. :thumb:
 
Jonathan Shively said:
My wife watches a lot of those home improvement shows on DIY. They show a newbie how to cut with a saw be it chop or table or circular then hand it over. Saw one once where they let the lady of the home split a sheet of plywood on a little table saw, it shot half of it back against a wall or something. Everyone laughed, I cringed. Accidents waiting to happen.
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Jonathan I also cringe when I watch those shows. Maybe it is just me, but I do not feel comfortable having my hand anywhere close to the blade as the wood is feed through the saw. I always use push sticks anytime my hand gets anywhere from 8 to 12 (or more, depending on where I am positioned and if I am having to reach) inches close to the running blade.
 
I imagine this isn't the end of the implementation of the SS Tech. I have a friend who dang near cut his arm off using a Miter saw. Apparently he was doing some kind of goofy cut and had one arm crossed over the front of the saw and got his shirt caught in the blade...

He fully admits it was his fault and nobody got sued, and he has the scars to remind him and fortunately still has full use of his arm.

Everytime I use my miter saw I think about what happened to him and ask myself "Am I making a safe cut?". I.e. if something goes wrong, is there anyway part of my body is in danger?

I think the SS is a fine piece of machinery, and I don't hate on it at all. But I'm not planning on trading in my tablesaw for one anytime soon.

I do think that this is a pretty slippery slope and if this lawsuit stands, you'll see prices go up and major redesigns on all sorts of machinery.

Just wonder how they will apply the technology to the use of the skew chisel... :rolleyes:
 
Mike Henderson said:
[Dan - thinking about why he didn't sue his boss: Workman's Comp limits the recovery and prevents him from suing his boss, I think, so he had to go after someone else.]
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I would not assume he didn't sue his boss. More than likely he got the boss and the workman's comp. This is probably just one of the many that the lawyers filed to fill there pockets I mean filed in his behalf.
It would also seem as if they where going after HD for selling an "unsafe saw". But that's yet another suite.
It's bird shot suing, file enough suites agents enough people and at least one of them is going to pay. Oh and don't forget the home owner the accident happened at there house so that means a suite needs to be filed agents them. They have insurance.:thumb:
 
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